Ok, folks, this shall be something of a specialized question, mainly for those that play the Magic, the Gathering card game. In specific, those who have kept current with the game and know the new cards from the Ravnica and Guildpact blocks.
Ok, folks. We have 7 Guild abilities. Some keywords, some not so much. Once the last three Guilds come out, I imagine this question will change a little. But, the question is this; of the 7 Guild abilities, which is the strongest? The weakest? In what order would you, from 1 as the strongest (and potentally most broken) to 7 being the weakest (and less likely to break the game)?
Our abilities are...
Bloodthirst N (If an opponent was dealt damage this turn, this creature comes into play with N +1/+1 counters on it.)
Convoke (Each creature you tap while playing this spell reduces its cost by 1 Mana or by one mana of that creature’s color.)
Dredge N (If you would draw a card, instead you may put exactly N cards from the top of your library into your graveyard. If you do, return this card from your graveyard to your hand. Otherwise, draw a card.)
Haunt (When this card is put into a graveyard from play, remove it from the game haunting target creature.) Haunt also has all those nasty comes into play abilities attached too it...
Radiance — Does it's effect to one target, and then each target (be it enchantment or creature) that shares a color with it. I am pretty sure these addition targets are not actually targeted, for the purposes of untargetability.
Replicate AB (When you play this spell, copy it for each time you paid its replicate cost. You may choose new targets for the copies. AB, in this case, is the replicate cost)
Transmute AB (AB, Discard this card: Search your library for a card with the same converted mana cost as this card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. Play only as a sorcery.)
This is a hard question. I really can't tell. It all depends on the situation, so I don't really know. They did a good job of blanacing them. Truefully I can see weakness in the ones I see as strongest. Radience for example is obvious, what if your oppornet is playing the one or both of your colors. Dredge, well you make a mill deck work faster. Convoke well, you can easily tap out your creatures leaving you open for attack. Bloodthrist, well most of the creatures I've seen with that start out as 1/1, so you really want to wait till you deal damage. If they see your playing with bloodthrist creatures, they will try harder to prevent damage to themselves leaving your creatures weaker. Haunt, well something happens twice... maybe. Not usually game changing. An extra card discarded... a creature destroyed... and sometimes conditions must be met first. Like is destroys a creature that was dealt damage. If no creatures were dealt damage, or if they were and didn't survive, then the effect is mute. Replicate, well it gets expensive, one damge for 2, not bad. 5 for 10, wow, yeah, theres gotta be something cheaper. I admit its nice for the different targets but still, can get really expensive. Lastly transmute. This... maybe... the strongest, through not by much. If you need a creature, drop a spell and look for one. Maybe you need a removal spell, or some mill power. You can fetch it easily. Its weakness is the disadvantage of letting your oppenent know what your about to do. They will probaly figure what your about to pull and try to avoid it or work around it or something. Also, you can only do it as a sorcery. But as an instant would be broken.
i would really have to put two to tie for the strongest. for instance transmute and replicate are pretty mean. there is a infinite mana combo with tidewater minion and this card that untaps permanents, that would let you replicate a spell as much as you want. where as transmute lets you get a card that you want at the exspense of a little mana and the card you are transmuting. 2 would be haunt, third would be raidance, forth would be bloodlust, fifth would be convoke, and sixth would be dredge. the reason i put drege at the end is becuase it gets rid of your library and without that you cant dredge. now if you put blue, with reminisces you have a different story.
Last Edit: Jan 30, 2006 8:53:37 GMT -5 by delicriox
"Expect the worst, hope for the best, then your never dissapointed in life." -Victor Delicriox-
@delicroix: OMGZORS! What is this combination? I must experiment~!
celest: Haunt is weak? Blugh! Two cards, maybe? OMG! Really, Haunt says nothing about having to target an opponent's creature. Thus, Cry of Contrition/Nezumi Bone-Reader says: BBB, Sacrifice a Creature: Target player discards three cards. Also, Orzhov Ghost Council/Blind Hunter: 2BBBWWW: Target player loses 6 life. You gain 6 life. Nevermind the fact that Blk/Wht is running easily some of the most interesting pairings for staple spells. Leave No Trace, Tempest of Light, Mortify, Castigate, Hideous Laughter, Last Gasp, Rend Flesh, Befoul, Cranial Extraction, and Nightmare Void are just as I look through the Gatherer.
However! My honest opinion is that any one ability can have a deck built around it that makes that deck powerful. How powerful is a matter of speculation. Can I make Transmute into a game winning ability? Probably not. Transmute without something to tutor for is worthless. Also, there are so many useless cards with Transmute, that it would be impossible to use the ability to find exactly what you're after. Also on this list of not likely game breakers is Dredge. Yes, Dredge will help you turn up all the fodder you need to play Living Death. What did you just say? Living Death hasn't seen print since Tempest? Oh dear! Seriously, though, someone could build a deck out of the principle. I feel, though, it would fail.
Now then, onto the not so obvious style of winning with guild abilities. Convoke will win through pure agro. Let me explain: Green loves to accellerate. White loves to defense. Green/White loves to weenie. So Convoke = Weenie Roast! For a better illustration, I point to anyone who has played Atreides Conscript's Selesnyans. They multiply like rabbits~! Honestly, I think my point is made there. Make enough saprolings, something Conscript is unnervingly good at doing, even in other decks, and you can straight Convoke an Autocthon Wurm.
Radiance: Three cards: Brightflame, Rally the Righteous, and Wojek Siren. Any questions? Ask artemi. If you cannot weenie your way through with enough burn, removal, and raw might, then you need to go back to playing green.
Haunt: See above.
Bloodthirst: If your doing damage to players, you don't need bigger creatures. However, if you really are interested in winning with the Gruul ability, think about using things that don't need to attack. Maybe Rumbling Slum? Or how about a simple Shock? The unfortunate part is that there isn't one Bloodthirst creature I've seen with Haste. Sadness.
Replicate: If there were any ability more annoying, the Simic will have it. How many times can you cast something before it hands you the game? A lot. Also, some of the Replicating cards are interestingly powered. For instance, Leap of Flame, Seige Towers, and Gigadrowse.
However~! It is my personal belief that the best way to figure out the best mechanic is to find the one that works best with the other mechanics. For instance, Replicating (a la Djinn Illuminatus) a Wojek Siren could be devastating to an opponent. I honestly look forward to the other three Guilds so I can see what all can interact with what.
Post by Atreides Conscript on Feb 20, 2006 22:16:50 GMT -5
admin said:
@delicroix: OMGZORS! What is this combination? I must experiment~!
Something tells me that this isn't going to be anything but weak in all respects of the word.
admin said:
celest: Haunt is weak? Blugh! Two cards, maybe? OMG! Really, Haunt says nothing about having to target an opponent's creature. Thus, Cry of Contrition/Nezumi Bone-Reader says: BBB, Sacrifice a Creature: Target player discards three cards. Also, Orzhov Ghost Council/Blind Hunter: 2BBBWWW: Target player loses 6 life. You gain 6 life. Nevermind the fact that Blk/Wht is running easily some of the most interesting pairings for staple spells. Leave No Trace, Tempest of Light, Mortify, Castigate, Hideous Laughter, Last Gasp, Rend Flesh, Befoul, Cranial Extraction, and Nightmare Void are just as I look through the Gatherer.
Actually Eun, the ability Haunt is invariably weak and slow when compared to the other abilities. Even Transmute has some quick fixes that can be found easily (Glimpse! Circu!). Aargh.
admin said:
Also on this list of not likely game breakers is Dredge. Yes, Dredge will help you turn up all the fodder you need to play Living Death. What did you just say? Living Death hasn't seen print since Tempest? Oh dear! Seriously, though, someone could build a deck out of the principle. I feel, though, it would fail.
Actually, Hunting Beast had a Dredge deck that ran some mad combos. He ran Primordial Sage amongst other things, and used a combination (not a combo) of Vulturous Zombies, Infectious Hosts, and Rolling Spoil to ruin your day. Putrefy also hit at some of the meanest times as well. Really, once a Vulturous hits play, there is little recourse for my Selesnya decks. It normally came down to Devouring Light to stop him.
admin said:
Now then, onto the not so obvious style of winning with guild abilities. Convoke will win through pure agro. Let me explain: Green loves to accelerate. White loves to defense. Green/White loves to weenie. So Convoke = Weenie Roast! For a better illustration, I point to anyone who has played Atreides Conscript's Selesnyans. They multiply like rabbits~! Honestly, I think my point is made there.
Actually, Convoke is very powerful, but that doesn't mean it always works out. I fear that most of what you're basing this on is conjecture Eun (that, and Ghazi Glare taking the tournament scene), but there are those of us who are taking the field and seeing the real knitty-gritty of it. Wish you could be in on it, but I suppose it happens. I have seen my Selesnya decks ripped apart for their Convoke habits. it doesn't always save you....
admin said:
Make enough saprolings, something Conscript is unnervingly good at doing, even in other decks, and you can straight Convoke an Autocthon Wurm.
I appreciate the compliment (I think=/), but you can't straight Convoke an Autocthon with only Saprolings. Convoke can't add white mana from green-only creatures.
admin said:
Radiance: Three cards: Brightflame, Rally the Righteous, and Wojek Siren. Any questions? Ask artemi. If you cannot weenie your way through with enough burn, removal, and raw might, then you need to go back to playing green.
Let me start this one off by saying that I've never seen anything that even closely resembled an unstoppable Radiance deck. In fact, decks aren't even built around the concept. It is merely there for backup. It does a decent job at that, but even Artemi's Boros can't use Radiance as effectively as one can wield most other guild abilities.
admin said:
Bloodthirst: If your doing damage to players, you don't need bigger creatures. However, if you really are interested in winning with the Gruul ability, think about using things that don't need to attack. Maybe Rumbling Slum? Or how about a simple Shock? The unfortunate part is that there isn't one Bloodthirst creature I've seen with Haste. Sadness.
I've seen what Bloodthirst can do. Hunting Beast runs a new Gruul deck that uses a nasty combination of Bloodthirst, land destruction, Slum, and Skarrgan Skybreaker to ruin your day. Still doesn't beat High Horse, but it comes damn close.
admin said:
Replicate: If there were any ability more annoying, the Simic will have it. How many times can you cast something before it hands you the game? A lot. Also, some of the Replicating cards are interestingly powered. For instance, Leap of Flame, Seige Towers, and Gigadrowse.
As for your "How many times?" part here, I must agree with your end result. A lot. Does that mean you will cast the spell a lot and have it hand you the game? NO. It means that you will have to replicate a spell far more than you should be able to brow-beat an opponent into submission. Very few cards with Replicate are anywhere near game breaking. The ability came out nice and balanced. Not like their guild leader's ability... which is ridiculous by comparison.
admin said:
However~! It is my personal belief that the best way to figure out the best mechanic is to find the one that works best with the other mechanics. For instance, Replicating (a la Djinn Illuminatus) a Wojek Siren could be devastating to an opponent. I honestly look forward to the other three Guilds so I can see what all can interact with what.
Obviously, you will have inter-guild crossing within the tournament scene. Funny really. The best deck concept I've run doesn't even use guild boundaries at all (let alone trying to mix them). High Horse uses Convoke for a couple of spells, but that is merely for the utility of it. Guild abilities slow you down if you're trying to build off of them. They however, do work wonders for that extra bit to push you ahead.
What do you call 4 crows milling about at the side of a road?
All right. My opinions on the guilds were being taken from a strictly mechanical sense. Honestly, like I said, the best mechanic is the one you can merge with others. For instance, Transmuting a Clutch of the Undercity for a Nightmare Void would be terrifying! "Ooh look, I find a Void and play it. Next, I play Consult. Uh-oh!" Follow that up with a timely Cry of Contrition to Haunt your Drowned Rusalka (!!)! Eep!
On the note of the Green abilities: They are not weak in any sense. I just am forced to believe that they are limited to what they do. Dredge brings one card back. Convoke brings out one card. Bloodthirst affects one creature. See? Singleminded. However, how many 4cc cards in T2 can you Transmute for? (288) How many colored creatures/permanents are there to Radiate? (1051) What about Replication targets? The versatility of the others is simply unheard of. Honestly, I shudder to think what on earth the Simic ability will be: singlular purpose with multiple possibilities?
So, again, the best Guild ability is the most versatile. Which is most versatile? My money is on the Replicate. Anything you can do, it can do more. Next up, probably Haunt. Then, in a major recant, probably Transmute. After all, Blk/Blu does enjoy the waiting game. Well then?
*sighs* Ok... So I had five minutes to kill. I browse the board and I see this... This... The best guild? The Worst? And some of the responses... I had to recreate my account just for my fifty two scents...
First things... Haunt is weak. Believe it or not, Haunt is very weak. It's good in limited, but in constructed, it can't contend. When you throw together an Orz deck, why not do what they did for Boros? Orz Deck Wins! You have fast black and white with evasion, removal, and hell, the ability to side in either Cruelties or Honors... Well, I wouldn't personally waist my sideboard on them but still (the format will be to riddled with Blue and Red).
Haunt leaves to many windows open for what it accomplished. Bounce the target, destroy before the haunt resolves, remove the haunt card from the grave before haunt resolves, even protection stops it... Limited bud, I've taken Blind hunters over most rares, but Constructed, it'll be hard to accomplish.
--- So, now... My opinion (like it matters) On the BEST of all 7 Shown so far?
Transmute... Eunwhaties said something along the lines of "Can I make Transmute into a game winning ability? Probably not. Transmute without something to tutor for is worthless." That's true, but any deck that themes on Transmute has a ton of fetches and no cranial can ever eliminate the usefullity (word check)... That ability alone brought back the Power Tower, yes, the old Odyssey fav, Battle of Wits... Ever lose to a 250 card deck that ran all 4 signets (pre guildpact) and like 90ish land? On turn four?... After a mulligan?...
Or Combo, kicking off on turn four and five with a Maga with 62 Counters with enough remaining mana to cast 2 Mana Leaks / Counters... It hurts... I think the ability is indeed verging brokenicity (word check)...
- The worst ability? That's easy, Radiance. In any format is strives to be mediocre at best. Why? With so many ways of destroying the spells original target, it fizzles 75% of the time that it will be a game defying move... The only reliable spell with Radiance that I'd fear in Limited would be Rally the Righteous, but even then, it's trumped if you're playing the same colors... -
How do I rate the others?
Bloodthirst is neh... It's good with Leyline of Lightning as a solid trigger, and having 4 Scabclan Maulers, 2 Skybreaker giants, and the leyline in Limited makes it damn near impossible to lose.... Shane went 4-1, comming in second at the Pre-release 2nd to final flight, with a 54 card deck.... 54... defying all logic, I immediately called judge and we all just dropped jaw and laughed... He even mainboarded the Green Leyline.... WHAT COUNTERS ARE YOU AFRAID OF!!!!! GRRRAAAUGH! And that is why Sealed Decks require a quarter of the skill of draft, and a tad more than constructed...
Replicate? ... eh, no biggies. Nothin' really great on the replicate list, 4 mana for 2 damage? 4 mana for 2 cards? Again, the value of Pyromantics goes up in limited, but not by much. Now if each Replicate triggered Play abilities like the Wee Dragonaughts...
Haunt... see above (the only one I truly like in every format is the Pontiff, he is very good, trumping not only tokens, but also lets your Jitte hit with an extra UMPH on the -1/-1)
Convoke? Good, not great. The acceleration it offers isn't really game breaking. Plan on seeing 6 Mana on turn 3 in most constructed games now-a-days. Hell, In Kamigawa Block PTQ, Joel and I ran Deck-X and saw Turn 3 Yosei on majority of games we won... Which wasn't alot, I think I went 4-3 and he went 3-4...
And Dredge... I think dredge is brutal. And yes, There are decks that solely base themselves on dredging guys. Why do you think Julien Najwhatits won 2 Grand Prix in a row with Stink a Tog in extended? Life of the Loam broke the deck and made it that much harder. In type 2, I've seen this raunchy construction lookin dude at BD win 2 standard tourneys in two weeks with one deck that just ran black green removal, shambling shells, life of loam, and natural affinity. Everyone claims it was luck but the deck was pretty good. He tweaked it a bit for week 3 and got smoked... It's something that requires alot of work, effort, and just the right ammount of luck.
So thatis it... And in most cases, the guilds shouldn't be judged from their abilities, 99% of the time the Gold cards without the guild mechanic, are superior.
- Roger Out
-- Best play in the world - 3x Guildpact draft, Final Round (Me Vs Kyle)
Post by gryphonpoet on Feb 23, 2006 3:56:10 GMT -5
Wow... Even though I haven't a clue about the more advanced aspects of Magic the Gathering, what everyone says sounds so intense. Now the question is begged...
When is the tournament to showcase all these theories and where will it be held?
