This is the continuation of the discussion I was having with gryphonpoet and Lylie in the OOC of the ST:Remnent thread....
For those confused, we were discussing people blaming us for the fact that their breathren had to leave the motherland (Africa). As a white, English-speaking, growing up in a 'middle class' South African, one thing that grinds me intensely is people blaming people in the present for things their fathers did.
=========================== I'd like to say that my heritage has nothing to do with slavery, but that would be a lie. As all might know, white South Africans did some baaad things to our black and coloured counterparts (with the Asians sitting on the sidelines, being confused). What grinds me is when people insist on living in the past. Ok, so my forefathers treated them badly, but they didn't go the 'peaceful' Mahatma(sp!) Ghandi way. Everybodies favourite celebrity, Nelson Mandela, bombed buildings - that's why he was in prison. Yes, it was in just but he was found guilty, along with 125 others of high treason.
Some of my forefathers died too. We're sorry, you're sorry - Okay, lets get on with making a difference in this moment.
CTO Cmdr Raiser, USS Broadsword (ACTD) TO Lt.JG Ro'kar, USS Perseus (ACTD) "The warrior of Light, like the experienced fighter, knows his or her own immense strength and never fights someone who doesn't deserve the honour of combat" - Paulo Coehlo
Normally, I would agree with you on the whole "leave it in the past" thing. However, people associate their pain with their past. This allows us to move forward, oddly enough. Somehow, by making someone in the present responsible for the past, we garner a sense of self importance. Maybe it comes from the fact that we can associate ourselves with the misery, angst, and strife of our ancestors.
I do agree, however, that these people need to leave it alone. There is a difference between association and obsession. Most people who throw the word 'racist' around nowadays are 1: Looking for a fight; 2: Racist themselves; 3: Trying to garner sympathy for whatever reason; 4: All of the above. Now, normally, I'd say ignore these people. However, people have a notorious past of hate crimes and revenge. Your best bet? Hide out in the Temple~! We're not racist here. We hate everyone equally ^.^~!
Now, where did I put that Gate at.... (wanders off to find this world's Gate)
Post by gryphonpoet on May 14, 2006 13:15:23 GMT -5
admin said:
Somehow, by making someone in the present responsible for the past, we garner a sense of self importance.
Exactly... Many people can't lift themselves up, so they work hard to bring everyone else down. What is worse, those same people think they are doing right.
I tend to avoid overly racist people of both different and same colour as me, either by walking away, keeping my mouth shut (if they are significantly bigger than me) or changing the topic (prefered choice!)
I find sometimes that people use the past as an excuse for actions in the present. I.e. You did <insert evil action here> so it gives me the right to <evil act here>. In the case of doing bad things, an equal (or greater) reaction is not always required.
CTO Cmdr Raiser, USS Broadsword (ACTD) TO Lt.JG Ro'kar, USS Perseus (ACTD) "The warrior of Light, like the experienced fighter, knows his or her own immense strength and never fights someone who doesn't deserve the honour of combat" - Paulo Coehlo
Post by The Hatter on Aug 29, 2006 20:40:54 GMT -5
One dosn't have to look far, to find rasicim in this world. It's all around us. One only has to turn on the television set in their own homes to hear some lovely euphemisims as "nigger", "kike", "slope", "Wetback", etc. The list goes on.
The idea that one can punish the ancestors of the perpetrators of these crimes, for said crimes is ludacris, but it still happens. There was a comedian, who is Black himself (To hell with political correct. You are what you say you are, and if you say "I'm black" then that's what you are....retrospectivly, of you call yourself a "Nigger" that's what you are. Period, end of disscussion.) who put this in a light that I liked;
"Black people, stop with that "Go back to Africa" shit. African's....don't like Black people...I know, I've been there. Not to mention...what the hell am I gonna do...in Africa? Besides fight in a dumb ass war wearin' sweatpants and tuxedo shoes, with a big ass spear."
The rascism between blacks and white will continue, untill more people just realize that people are people...no better, no worse, than everyone else.
But on that topic, I have to get this off my chest. Whites, in general use this alot; "We need to get a handle on the illegal immigrant situation...Their taking american jobs." Alright....I do admit that finding a job nowadays, is difficult. But look at it this way. These Mexicans, are taking alot of jobs, that most white people wouldn't do. Are you going to ride a bike against traffic in L.A. to deliver a Panini sandwich to someone in an upscale office? and then not bitch? I didn't think so.
I have a problem, as probably stated earlier, with people using their colour as an excuse. "Oh, you whites took land from us so we can take back what is 'ours' "
I admit, I am from a privelledged society. I never had to beg for money, I was never prevented from going to certain areas, I never have to wonder where my next meal comes from. I even drive a 12 year old BMW (don't get me started on its problems and its petrol guzzling ways)! In a country where 50% of our population is considered 'poor' I am exceptionally lucky. I even feel sick when some look at me on the street and seem to 'judge' me becuase of my car or money.
Unfortunately, there is not an equality of wealth. But there are those that abuse their new powers, that have ascended up ranks in businesses based on their colour rather than their qualifications - a disadvantage of being 'oppressed' for years. I am not saying that the other colours don't always deserve the jobs, I just ask that people go out and do the work and get a job on their skills not colour.
CTO Cmdr Raiser, USS Broadsword (ACTD) TO Lt.JG Ro'kar, USS Perseus (ACTD) "The warrior of Light, like the experienced fighter, knows his or her own immense strength and never fights someone who doesn't deserve the honour of combat" - Paulo Coehlo
Post by gryphonpoet on Aug 31, 2006 1:33:21 GMT -5
That is an awesomely Utopian dream that could never happen. The dual nature of humanity will prevent it. There will always be privileged few, there will always be the oppressed. And ne'er the twain shall meet.
Kudos to your sense of fairness and the effort you make to reach that level, Kensai. I struggle for the same thing. But then again, I am a trained Marine. I am used to fighting impossible odds.
I feel that I'll clean up my little corner of the world. Maybe... just maybe... my effort will cause someone else to clean up theirs a little. Then the world will be just a little cleaner...
Well Alexander I am afriad that some memories do not fade with time. What happened to the black people of our nation was horrible. And because the only way that their ancestors had to reconize the slave owners were by the color of their skin eveyone that is white or looks white gets blamed for the atrocities that where taken against them. But if they really really want to blame someone then they should blame the red man. Because let's not forget they we are the ones who cause them to come into slavery. After all if we hadn't gotten sick and started to die off when the white man (as sooo meny people love to call us) tried to use us as slaves then there wouldn't of been a need for the black man to be used as slaves.
Ok Now I have a question for you all. A black man is not black, but a chocolate color. Chocolate is brown, a rich color of brown. A red man is not red but a copper color. A mixture between a new penny and a middleaged penny, a very pretty color of copper. A white man is not white but a varient of light peach to a olive brown color. So why the hell to we call them red black and white? We are not red black or white. Just a thought. What do you think?
"You think that you can tell us apart? Many have tried, but then again, many have failed. What do you think the price for that is?" The Three Sisters Lylie-governess to a child of the first plain "You grew up. Thats a shame. The carousel never stops turning. You cant get off either. Its a shame."
Post by gryphonpoet on Sept 2, 2006 2:08:56 GMT -5
We've talked about part of this subject at length before, Lylie. So this is more for the others reading who may not know already.
It is still irritating to me personally to be accused of something I never did. Further, it is painful to hear my ancestors be accused when seven of my eight great-grandparents (That puts the time frame to about 1865) never set foot in the US. And the 8th one was a sharecropper, so he was able to vote, but otherwise a slave.
AND he was "white". Irish to be exact.
My family had nothing to do with the implementation of slavery in the US. And we got witnesses.
One last thing that not many people are aware of... At the start of the US Civil War, there were as many freedmen (Slaves who had won or purchased their freedom) in the Confederated States as there were in the United States. And the Confederacy also had one regiment of black soldiers, too.
In my Opinion Slavery is done and over with, let it go. Yes it happened but both colors had died on both sides. But now rascism being where I'm living it's all over the place. I came across a singer, and here just happeneds to be one of his songs. I don't mean any disrespect in any way to anoyone on this board or anyone outside of this.
WARNING: The following song lyrics contain explicit content of a racial nature. This content may not be appropriate for some readers, especially those who are easily upset by the subject of racial prejudice. Proceed only with caution.- Atreides Conscript (Temple Gatekeeper) LYRICS
Post by Atreides Conscript on Jan 24, 2007 15:21:43 GMT -5
Vagabond. Please take the song lyrics that you have posted in this section and create a hyperlink to another location where they can be viewed. I will then post a warning above that link stating its illicit nature for the benefit of other members of this forum.
In this way, you still retain all of the original information from your post. Further, this will eliminate any issue regarding the tactlessness of the information within your post. Bottom-line, everybody is happy.
I acknowledge your statement that you meant no disrespect by the posting of those lyrics. However, it has caused a problem and this is the only way that I can avoid censoring your post... which I do not want to do in the Hall of Screams.
Let this act as a warning to all. The Hall of Screams is a section of this forum meant for controversial topics and debate. However, from this point onward, that is no excuse for an utter lack of tact.
If your post contains illicit material of a prejudiced, discriminatory, erotic, violent, or otherwise risky nature... type it somewhere else on the 'net and hyperlink to its location. Then inform me of the material via PM, and I will place a proper warning.
In doing so, you cover your own back. If you follow those guidelines, so long as you violate no other rules of the forum, you will be protected from any reprimand, and the responsibility falls to me.
What do you call 4 crows milling about at the side of a road?
Post by The Hatter on Jan 25, 2007 17:32:23 GMT -5
The idea of reverse racism to me is abit of a joke. It does seem however that nine times out of ten whites are pegged as being the rasist ones in any situaiton, hands down.
Personaly, I'm very open to the diversity that America has now. I don't have a problem with mexicans coming though the border, I don't have a problem with blacks, I don't have a problem with asians or indians, or native americans. I just think that a few things need to change.
For intence with the whole illegal alien thing, I don't care if you come into the country, BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE, SIGN THE GUEST BOOK ON THE WAY IN!.
(I'm going to tread on very dangerous ground and leave myself wide open to cries of "omg ur so racist thats horribre". Bring it. I have a thick, calloused heart, toughened by years on a diet of fried puppies and the dreams of innocents. Plus, I am an equal-opportunity employer, as my jackbooted minions will demonstrate. Everybody is given an equal opportunity to prove themselves. Those who fail at the simple task of being a male of the Master Race are not hired. I mean, really - how hard can it be?
Ah, tactless levity. Helps to balance a very sensitive subject. If you found that offensive, I'm sorry. Not that I said it, but that you didn't understand my meaning. Now, on to the actual post.)
I am not prejudiced towards individuals qua individuals. I don't dislike or think less of anybody for what they are, physiologically, psychologically (a good friend of mine from boot camp is in all seriousness one of the stupidest people I've ever met - great guy, just dumb as a brick), or in any other aspect of their being that is not under their control.
I judge people based on the choices they make, based on the groups they put themselves in, based on the labels they apply to themselves, based on the behaviors they display.
Since there has been so much written in this thread about the white/black racial issue, I'm going to use a totally different set of examples.
Person A is a young Japanese man with spiky, bleached hair, a very cheap suit, and two missing fingers. Person B is a teenage white girl with a monochrome makeup job, straight black hair, fishnets, heeled boots, and an Emily T-shirt. Person C is a white man in his late thirties, wearing a somewhat wrinkled set of US Navy service dress blues. He is a second-class petty officer with three red service stripes. I've never spoken a word to any of these people and already I don't want to associate with any of them.
Person A is trying very hard to scream how cool and with the New Japanese Urban Youth Scene he is. His suit, however, is unusual for someone with his hairstyle. That, combined with the missing fingers, suggests he is a yakuza soldier, and probably not a very good one. Therefore he is a very dangerous person to be around.
Person B is probably a reasonably intelligent young woman who has recently discovered that the world is not a very nice place, and that life does not come with an instruction manual. She is likely to be self-absorbed and something of an attention-seeker.
Person C does not take the time to keep his most formal attire in good condition, suggesting that he is lazy. He is quite old and senior for a second-class petty officer, suggesting that he is not good at his job. The color of his service stripes says that he has undergone significant disciplinary action at some point during his career.
By the way they present themselves, these people all cause me to think less of them, without having spoken a single word to them.
Am I willing to be proven wrong? Hell yes! Perhaps the GM2 took the fall - and the reduction in rate - for something he didn't do, to protect someone else. Perhaps he just got off watch, explaining the appearance of his clothes. Perhaps the young lady discovered during a particularly unpleasant time in her life the well-known fact that goth chicks can be really hot, and is simply making herself attractive. Perhaps the yak soldier is simply a victim of an accident with a hatchet, who can't afford a good suit because he's a farm boy trying to get into a corporation.
Perhaps. But these are not the implications they give by the way they present themselves.
Similarly, if a young black man is wearing falling-off-his-ass baggy jeans, a knee-length white T-shirt-like garment, several articles of gold jewelry, brand-new sneakers, and a do-rag, and is blaring hip-hop through earphones so loud that I can hear it ten feet away, certain assumptions are going to be made. The same man wearing well-fitting jeans and a sweatshirt, the same sneakers, bare-headed, with no jewelry save a watch and wedding band, wearing earphones whose music I cannot hear and carrying a bookbag is going to cause a totally different set of assumptions to be made. These assumptions may be wrong; I am totally willing to reevaluate them upon further interaction with the man. But by the way he dresses, acts, and carries himself, he sends a message: this is how I want to seem to you. The implication: this is who I am. If I receive his message, therefore, and treat him much more warily and distantly if he is dressed in the first ensemble, am I "racist"?
Honestly, I don't think so. By presenting himself in this manner he is associating himself with a given group - one which, historically, has behaved in certain ways. By associating himself with this group, he is conveying the message that he, too, behaves in these ways. I will treat him as such until I find out otherwise. If that's racism, it is because people are sorting themselves into race-based groups.
And I'd think of a white man who behaved in that way much as I would think of the black man who behaves in that way. Just... I very rarely see white men do so. It does happen, though.
Repeat after me: My life will not reinforce negative stereotypes.
