Anyone for closing the borders? How about legalizing / deporting all illegal immigrants that have been here for so long?
Better question: Anyone know the particulars of the proposed 'Guest Worker' program?
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Post by gryphonpoet on May 2, 2006 11:21:47 GMT -5
The borders of the US have been closed to various degrees since immigration was limited in the 1890's. Open borders would have no patrols or enforcement.
About the immigration problems today, it is an example of how civil disobeience works. The immigrants (specifically from Mexico and Asia) ignore the statutes already in place to process them into the US. Primarily because there are limits to the numbers of people processed from each nation and region of the world. If their nation has already passed the quota of legal immigrants, then they "have to" enter the US illegally. (ie "Border Jumping")
I have a problem with closing the borders completely. The biggest being that I am a grandson of an immigrant. So is everyone on this board whether they did so voluntarily or by force, except for Lylie (who is part Native American) and Kensai (who is South African). Immigration is a big chunk of the mythical "American Dream" and to remove it completely is reprehensible, in my opinion.
Also, I have a larger problem with legalizing the status of all the border jumpers currently in the US. The problems with that particular solution are manifold and mostly blatantly obvious.
Maybe a temporary closure of the borders. That has precedent in history. But not a wall around the US without expiration.
Now for your second question, I haven't taken the time to look up the details about the "Guest Worker" proposal. I'll have to get a little more time available before I can. And hopefully soon, too.
Post by Atreides Conscript on May 2, 2006 14:23:05 GMT -5
gryphonpoet said:
The problems with that particular solution are manifold and mostly blatantly obvious.
Not to comment in any way on what you have said Gryphonpoet, but what you haven't could use some elaboration. Remember that this is the debate section, and such can only aide in your point. What is obvious to one, may not be obvious to many, and that can easily weaken your vantage point. Just a friendly piece of advice.
That being said, have fun.... ;D
What do you call 4 crows milling about at the side of a road?
Elaborating on gryphonpoet's point, the problems are several. First: to legalize those who are currently illegal aliens, we would have to track them all down. Many of them do not want to be tracked down for fear of deportation. It would end up degenerating into a giant manhunt, which is what we would have if we tried to kick them out. Then there's the damage a sudden influx of legitimate immigrants would do to our economy - the job market is not stellar at the moment anyway. Finally, there is the damage to our law enforcement's credibility - legalizing all illegal aliens is tantamount to saying, "well, if we can't enforce something, we'll just let you do it". Which is a very bad thing from the cops' standpoint. That's all I can think of off the top of my head; I'm sure there are other issues.
I don't have an opinion yet about the issue at hand, as I haven't had enough time to research it to my satisfaction.
Post by gryphonpoet on May 2, 2006 22:24:13 GMT -5
More of the points of disadvantage to the concept of legalizing all the illegal aliens...
The main reasons for most foreign nationals to come to the United States are manifold. But the bulk can be seperated into some basic categories.
1) The perception of personal freedom in the US. Political refugees for a variety of reasons come to the US to be able to avoid persecution or prosecution in their homelands.
2) The ability to move upwards economically. Poor people have always migrated according to their pockbooks and the potential to change the level of financial comfort. Some of these people want to work hard to get ahead and some want to hardly work to get by.
3) Criminals not wanting to stand trial.
>>>AS A DISCLAIMER-- this is not an exhaustive list of all the reasons for seeking immigration to the US. It is just a list of thumbnail logical processes that cover the majority of motivations foreigners have to come here.<<<
To legalize their status is tricky at best. There are many who would be a benefit to the society of the US and many who would not be. To close off the borders would be to deny American society a chance to benefit from those who can help. To open the borders entirely would be to invite any and all riff-raff and scum to help deteriorate what does work in the US already.
Though I am not completely certain about how, I am positive there is a way to meet at the middle ground on the issue. Sadly, it seems the best way so far happens to be the one ignored by the people in the business of bringing refugees into the US illegally. Thus, overwhelming the punitive portion of the laws, rendering them effectively useless.
I admit that I am at a loss for what to do. I just know closing borders completely is as bad an idea as opening them completely is.
PS - Both sets of my grandparents came to the US for reason #3...
I'm so sick and tired of all these illegal aliens. Where I work I can barely talk to several people cause they don't know a single word of english. Russian, German, Spanish. They all should be kicked out of the country being illegal and not being able to speak any english or even write or read.
I had an idea the other day though. How about we just shuv them all into our millitary and pay them half of what we get paid, or even less then that, lol. Not just some like 3yr thing, but a permanet thing until they die, lol. But just my idea.
Well... let's see if we put everyone that are immigrants in this country in the military or back to where "they came from," then we would have a really empty country. Any one who is not Native American would be shipped out of the country, or get a poor pay for being in the military and not being Native American. Hey that means that I'll get a good job. I'll be one of the few Native Americans left. My daughter will get to stay. My husband would have to leave or take a third rate job and get payed half of what he normally would get payed. So yeah, lets see... most of my friends would be either sent "back to where they came from" or they would be forced to take a dangerous job at half the pay.
Ohh yeah that sounds like such a "good and wholesome" idea to. Really sound.
"You think that you can tell us apart? Many have tried, but then again, many have failed. What do you think the price for that is?" The Three Sisters Lylie-governess to a child of the first plain "You grew up. Thats a shame. The carousel never stops turning. You cant get off either. Its a shame."
Post by Atreides Conscript on Jan 23, 2007 17:28:21 GMT -5
wonderer said:
I'm so sick and tired of all these illegal aliens. Where I work I can barely talk to several people cause they don't know a single word of english. Russian, German, Spanish. They all should be kicked out of the country being illegal and not being able to speak any english or even write or read.
I had an idea the other day though. How about we just shuv them all into our millitary and pay them half of what we get paid, or even less then that, lol. Not just some like 3yr thing, but a permanet thing until they die, lol. But just my idea.
I'm not sure if you realised it, Vagabond, but this is a section for debate... not opinion. There is a very profound difference between the two. In a debate you must back up your opinions rather than simply stating them.
As the moderator of this board, I will now ask you to do so.
What do you call 4 crows milling about at the side of a road?
[/quote]I'm not sure if you realized it, Vagabond, but this is a section for debate... not opinion. There is a very profound difference between the two. In a debate you must back up your opinions rather than simply stating them.
As the moderator of this board, I will now ask you to do so.[/quote]
Then How about this, please tell me why I should have to work my ass off when someone comes along who can't even do the same job as 1/2 as good as I can. And get paid more than me in the process, and is allowed 80+hrs a week. That is why I have a problem with all of it.
Post by gryphonpoet on Jan 24, 2007 2:22:17 GMT -5
If someone is willing to work 80+ hours a week for me (as a business owner), I would be willing to pay them more. They would be more valuable to me. More experienced, more skills developed from repetitious working.
The reason any immigrant improves his station is because they (as a group) are willing to put in the hours necessary and without complaints. After all, that is how our ancestors go ahead. By out working and out performing the ones who were here before them. All the way back to the Puritans who had to out perform the Indians...
Post by Atreides Conscript on Jan 24, 2007 2:50:23 GMT -5
wonderer said:
Then How about this, please tell me why I should have to work my ass off when someone comes along who can't even do the same job as 1/2 as good as I can. And get paid more than me in the process, and is allowed 80+hrs a week. That is why I have a problem with all of it.
No business owner hires an inept worker for MORE money and then works them MORE hours per week. It just doesn't happen in reality.
Perhaps they are willing to work longer than you for less than you, but are less skilled. Or, perhaps they are more skilled than you and willing to work for more and for more hours. Bottom-line, employers don't hire immigrants to screw over Americans.
Employers hire immigrants because it gives them a better economic equivalent... either because they are more skilled, or work for less money, or work hard jobs for long hours, or EVEN work without complaining or threatening to unionize.
Perhaps you need to consider how you can make yourself more attractive to potential employers than the average immigrant worker. Perhaps you need to be willing to work for less. Maybe you need to be much more skilled than the immigrant. Overall, you need to find out why an immigrant worker is better than you in the eyes of employers. Then, perhaps, you can solve your job dilemma.
However, if it all is truly as you say for your area, then your problem needs to be with the idiotic local employers rather than the immigrants who are just doing the jobs.
What do you call 4 crows milling about at the side of a road?
Let's try not to get onto the subject of employment and who 'deserves' the job more than the other. As a South African, it is a very sore point for we have a system in place that is great on paper but not fair on other rights (Called Black Economic Empowerment -> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Economic_Empowerment)
Right back to the topic of immigration: I can see that the USA has a problem with immigrants because they do tend to waste resources and I am sure you get a lot of them because they believe that the country can provide them with prospects that they cannot get in their own country. I am not saying that the Americas are not without problems, but compare to some of the countries in this world - it is heaven
We have the same problem in South Africa, but people tend to flee to SA out of fear. There are a lot of wars (Somalia, Ethiopia, Demcratic Republic of Congo, Rwanda etc.) that rage Africa as well as a lot of civil unrest (Kenya, Malawi, Zimbabwe especially) so people tend to flee to SA because it is a stable country.
Unfortunately this also brings in an influx of poor people and can result in an increase in crime. The Nigerians are well-known for their drug dealings in South Africa.
It is a sore point for society as a whole because one cannot willingly send someone back to a place that is worse than where they are right now.
If your president decided tomorrow that all the blue people occupied land that was rightfully orange peoples (it had been taken away when the blue people took over the land) and he encouraged the orange people to take back their land, by force if necessary, and convinced the society as a whole that the blue people were in the wrong. The president managed to squash any real means of resistance or opposition, framing opposition leaders on public TV showing them to be murderers (when they were not). And if you didn't believe in his way of doing things you had two options: Get out of the country or continue to watch as your leader makes a mess of your country (He lives in a huge palace while you use the currency as loo paper because its cheaper than buying toilet paper). If you were one of the blue people, or disagreed with your leader and had no means to change it - would you live in the country?
I am not making this up, there is a certain country (well actually a few, but I am basing it off one particular one) that is exactly like this. The leader squanders the wealth of the country and is a dictator. But that is my opinion, behind the safety of my walls
CTO Cmdr Raiser, USS Broadsword (ACTD) TO Lt.JG Ro'kar, USS Perseus (ACTD) "The warrior of Light, like the experienced fighter, knows his or her own immense strength and never fights someone who doesn't deserve the honour of combat" - Paulo Coehlo
I'm so sick and tired of all these illegal aliens. Where I work I can barely talk to several people cause they don't know a single word of english. Russian, German, Spanish. They all should be kicked out of the country being illegal and not being able to speak any english or even write or read.
I had an idea the other day though. How about we just shuv them all into our millitary and pay them half of what we get paid, or even less then that, lol. Not just some like 3yr thing, but a permanet thing until they die, lol. But just my idea.
Okay, I have to address this military thing.
I've been a serving member of the US armed forces for a little over a year now. I've seen some crazy shit. And I will tell you now that when the fecal matter impacts upon the free-standing rotary atmosphere impeller, I do not want anyone aboard my ship who doesn't want to be there. If ENFN Schmuckatelli was a conscript, and doesn't want to be here, and says "fuck you, DC2, I'm sick of this shit," and lets go of his hose, we now have a wild hose situation. The hose goes batshit crazy, flies all the hell over the place with more force than a low-speed motorcycle crash. The entire hose team is now dead or crippled - fifteen men. Possibly, the other hose team on the fire is also incapacitated. Meaning the fire does not get fought. Meaning the ship's engines burn and stop turning. Meaning the ship loses power. Meaning she dies.
There are three hundred souls aboard my ship. We are a wildly diverse group of individuals. The only two things all of us have in common are these:
We are all trained sailors. We all volunteered.
I want no part of any plan in which someone joins the United States military against his or her will.
On a totally different note, plenty of legal aliens don't speak English. I know two United States citizens who don't speak English. While the ability to speak English is an important requisite for many jobs in the US - including, incidentally, military service, as one must be able to comprehend orders given in English - it is not and should not be a requisite for residence.
kensai said:
I am not making this up, there is a certain country (well actually a few, but I am basing it off one particular one) that is exactly like this. The leader squanders the wealth of the country and is a dictator. But that is my opinion, behind the safety of my walls
No offense, Kensai, but your continent sucks. I'm talking on the order of giga-Lovelaces, here.
